MJ’s Off The Wall: The 1979 Snub That Built Thriller | 50 For 50

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[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to 50 for 50.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Mike and I are here to talk about... Let's just get this out of the way.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is your favorite album of all time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It is not my favorite album of all time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It is up there.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Top five.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely top five.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe top jury.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Is your favorite album of Prince Oble?

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[SPEAKER_00]: It depends on when you ask me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Some days, this is a print album, some days to Stevie.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're going to actually talk about that Stevie out.

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[SPEAKER_00]: No, we're not going to talk about the Stevie out because it came out before we were born.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But we'll talk about another Stevie out.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But we'll talk about it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that other Stevie out will actually be our last episode.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to do like, we're going to do like Jay-Z and go in a reverse.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to take it all the way back to the year of our birth as our last episode.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So we're talking about all off the wall here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And if you checked out our review, we reviewed the movie that just came out, Michael, that is up in this feed 50 for 50.net.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And we had our thoughts, but we move on because we're gonna talk about off the wall.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is our first, is this the first,

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[SPEAKER_01]: 50 for 50 that we've done where we've actually gone into the 70s acting so because we did Lionel that was 1982.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Triumph was the earliest we did before and that was 1980.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we're going back and

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, not that either of us can remember what happened in 1979 as it pertained to us, but we were three years old.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But I find the year of 1979 in music, super duper interesting.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, because it's disco running wild hip hop in its early commercial stages.

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[SPEAKER_01]: though when we do our Grammys Redux segment, it's almost like the album didn't even come out like as far as how it was rewarded, right?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this would kind of,

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[SPEAKER_01]: The according to the story is this is really a big part of why Michael went so full throttle into thrillers because he was like, you know, I have to do, I have to do bigger and better than everybody else just to get noticed.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so the Grammys for 1980 did not really recognize this album outside of, I think it was don't stop to get enough.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But we'll look at what the nominated albums were for that Grammys.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll talk about that later.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But let's

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[SPEAKER_01]: a little bit.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So the year of 1979, let's go back to January 6th.

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[SPEAKER_01]: American bandstand featured the debut of the YMCA dance using the hand gestures forming the letters YMCA during a broadcast with the village people.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Even that's true.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The first time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, where else would people have seen it?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just waiting for someone to go, oh, you know, my grandfather in 1972, he actually invented it because he went to the YMCA, you know, often and I always hear those things.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, January 13th, this is sad one, Donnie Hathaway dies after falling 15 stories from his hotel room in New York, according to Hathaway's record company, the singer had been having psychological problems.

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[SPEAKER_01]: No, God, I was going to say, how much of Donnie's story do you know?

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, bits and pieces from what I understand, Donnie Hacked the way he had schizophrenia.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is the 1970s, and mental illness was not as...

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[SPEAKER_00]: It certainly wasn't something that was talked about a lot, and it wasn't something that we had the tools

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[SPEAKER_00]: deal with the way we do now.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And even now, I think the tools that we have to deal with meant to help it pretty crappy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So in the 70s, there were even worse.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if anybody's seen one floor over the kukus nest, that movie is horrifying.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then we

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, Donny Hathenway had a lot of mental health issues, was super paranoid, was on and off medications, and the medications weren't great back then, and, you know, at the end of the day, he decided to end his own life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: February 2nd, Sex Pistols Base has said vicious is found dead from an overdose a day after being released on bail from rockers island rocker rikers island prison.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, vicious.

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[SPEAKER_00]: where there's just a lot of gray happening.

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[SPEAKER_00]: No one knows if he actually did it or if he was set up or like, you know, it could have been like a drug fueled rage, it could have been a million and one different things.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But they were too heavily, heavily addicted people.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's a movie called Sidnaancy that attempts to sort of explain this story in a way not unlike

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[SPEAKER_00]: the way Michael tells the story of Michael Jackson so you know all that lore is kind of out there in the world.

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[SPEAKER_01]: February 11th 43 million viewers watch Elvis exclamation point on ABC a made for TV movie starring Kurt Russell as Elvis.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They never seen John.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen it either, but he he only been dead like a year and a half at that point and they were they were not

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[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, February the 15th, the 21st annual Grammys presented in LA hosted by John Denver.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The BG's collect four Grammys for Saturday night fever, including Albany the year.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Billy Jules just the way you are wins both record and song in a taste of honey wins best new artist.

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[SPEAKER_00]: One of those curse of the best new artist, uh, things that they always talk about.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Here's an interesting one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: April 2nd, Kate Bush begins her first and for 35 years only tour, she becomes the first artist to use a wireless microphone.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, tech.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that, yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Crazy.

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[SPEAKER_01]: May the 12th.

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[SPEAKER_01]: disco music occupies eight of the top 10 spots in the Billboard 100 for two weeks.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The charts are led by peaches and herbs.

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[SPEAKER_01]: R&B ballad single reunited.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Is that, I mean, that's not a disco record.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I hope that's not considered one of those eight songs.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't think so, but I almost

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[SPEAKER_01]: disco did have to be fast.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean disco is about tempo, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: So it would have to be fast and danceable, but I think a lot of people that talk about disco music in the 70s are just like, oh, black people music.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if Donna Summer,

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[SPEAKER_01]: If she did a slow jam, it would not be a disco.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a disco song.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Even though she's a disco artist.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't even know that Donna.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, that's a whole semantics thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I think Donna summer was a pop artist that sang disco.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but you know, if she was singing, uh, I'm then I'm trying to actually think of a slow song of hers and I'm drawing a blank.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But if she sang a ballad, then it wasn't a disco record.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was Donna summer singing a ballad.

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[SPEAKER_01]: uh... june the ninth the beach is equal being cross be able to pressy in the beetles with the record six consecutive number one singles in the u.s. in less than a single calendar year all right they're hot man yes they were at uh... june sixteen done a summer becomes the first female to have in the number one single hot stuff and album bad girls for a second

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[SPEAKER_00]: Done, I mean, done a summer was everywhere.

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[SPEAKER_00]: She was, you know, the biggest thing going at that time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The Sony Walkman, July the first, goes on sale in Japan.

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[SPEAKER_01]: How much of an influence with this piece of technology being your life?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, I had multiple Walkman from the Walkman to the Discman that was a solid decade and a half of my life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you think about the things that we use for entertainment or for utility or whatever, the walkman's kind of, it's got to be pretty high, right, for your life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, man.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I just really, you know, look, I grew up in Brooklyn.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I just remember like having a high-drew walkman because people were stealing, people were stealing walking in the same way they were stealing your sneakers.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you had a nice walkman, that shit was getting jacked.

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[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so August 10th, Michael Jackson releases his fifth studio album, the one we are going to talk about today, off the wall which would eventually become his first breakthrough solo album.

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[SPEAKER_01]: August 24,

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[SPEAKER_01]: Prince's first hit single, I want to be your lover is released in the US reaching number one on the R&B and number 11 on the Hot 100 selling more than a million copies in the US.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And there is, you know, Michael and Prince, their careers crossed each other and there's even a Michael Jackson hanging out in the pool thinking about Prince in the movie Michael.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's so silly.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's funny because that quote,

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[SPEAKER_00]: about, you know, God giving ideas to Prince is from what I remember something that he said it referenced to like, this is it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And there's 20 years between when the movie says he made that remark and the time he allegedly actually made that remark.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the many inconsistencies in that movie.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You're shoehorned it in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You're you're you're you're doing it just so that

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when people write about the movie, they bring up that part.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Movie to see Michael and Prince were thinking about each other all the way back then.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, uh, Oxford, 25th, my Shorona by the knack hits number one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the first time in over a year that a song hits number one, that is not either a disco song or a ballad signaling the potential resurgence of rock.

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[SPEAKER_00]: white people were big met.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, the disco sucks movement was basically MAGA 35 years before it happened.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The last one here, September 16th, the Sugar Hill gang released rappers delight in the US.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The first rap single to become a top 40 hit on the Billboard 100.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What other rap song would have even been released at that point?

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[SPEAKER_00]: There weren't any.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean,

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[SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's talk about off the wall here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, if we go back to 1979, a very important narrative that we have been told is that he loved being with his brothers, but he knew that he really wanted to be a solo act.

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[SPEAKER_01]: and because of his father's influence and control over his career, it wasn't that easy to do so.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So off the wall is his kind of his first grown-up non-kid version of Michael Album, and Quincy Jones is the producer.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a story, is this true

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[SPEAKER_00]: I read that Michael met Quincy when he was a kid.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I wouldn't have thought.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but they didn't really get to like know each other.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Or you know, working together.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, Quincy Jones, as the producer of Off the Wall and Michael Jackson coming into his own is kind of like that perfect match made in heaven together, the crossing of the careers, the crossing of the paths, just perfect timing, and of course, Rod Temperagen as well, who gets a name drop in the Michael movie.

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[SPEAKER_01]: one of those just perfect partnerships.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, they work together all the way through bad.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But do they work together again after, after bad, bad was this angle song?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What was the breakdown in their relationship?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think, hey, Michael was growing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So off the wall comes out Michael's 20 years old.

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[SPEAKER_00]: bad comes out Michael's almost 30 years old.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think maybe there was a sense that Michael had outgrown Quincy or you know it was just like hey like now I'm a grown-ass man I can handle my own business I can do this myself.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean there's also the implication that by the time bad was over and Michael was ready to start work on dangerous that Quincy was kind of old and out of touch.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, Michael wanted to work with people who were younger, who were more hit, um, you know, because Quincy by the time that is over and done with this like 60 years old and I mean, and if you were to compare the first three albums starting with off the wall.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Bad probably sounds the least progressive and the most dated of the thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, bad almost sounds behind the times.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because by the time bad comes out, control is already out, prints is popping, new jacks, wings about to take off.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, music, particularly black music is going in this different direction.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And bad just kind of sounded like through a part two.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So,

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[SPEAKER_01]: the album is obviously a success, but, you know, it doesn't even debut at number one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It debuted at number three, it's number three, yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it does sell over 20 million, but a lot of that I'm assuming, I don't know what those sales look like.

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[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of those probably happened after thriller came out.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it didn't throughout the years.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think it's in its initial run like 1979, 1980, also like, you know, in the US maybe like four or five million copies.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So at that time, it was actually the biggest selling album by Black artists, even then in history.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And part of that is because Motown did not allow its artists to be audited by the RWA.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So,

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[SPEAKER_00]: No Stevie Album, no Rick James Album, no Diana Ross album was going to get like certified back then.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, it comes with an asterisk.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But, I mean, I would say off the wall has sold as many copies, like since its initial run, then it did during its initial run.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's sort of a diamond in the US now.

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[SPEAKER_01]: heavy, heavy disco sort of influence with the high tempo tracks, you know, don't stop to get enough.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Burn this just go out.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He wants people to get on the dance floor.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This will be played in the clubs.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And this also comes.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This is when Mike was so to like kind of set to

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[SPEAKER_00]: The Wizard come out in 1978 and the Wiz was filmed on location in New York.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Michael had to leave.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He left his home in Los Angeles for the first time and basically spent like, I don't know, a few months.

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[SPEAKER_00]: out in New York.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He was living with the Toyota.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He was just kind of like this person who was experiencing like complete independence for the first time because you know Joseph wasn't around his family wasn't around and was going out clubbing with either the people in the cast of the whiz or you know with the sisters or whatever so he's going like studio 54 he's going all these places and he's like full on in like club culture.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I think off the wall was really just

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[SPEAKER_00]: him knowing as a dancer, as a club or like what is going to be popping in the clubs, like he was doing field research, essentially, making an album that reflected that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That would be such an interesting time in place to go back to.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I would love

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it would be great if some of the people who were like hanging out with Mike during that period, like whether they're, you know, cast members of the whiz who were still alive and like, I think Stephanie Mills is spoken about it, you know, a few times just what that period was like in his life.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Have there been any good studio 54 docs out there?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I know there's a movie with Mike Myers believe it or not.

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[SPEAKER_00]: He's come up a lot in this series But I don't know if there's a documentary.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There must be there has to be what's the what's the club that was always on quest love supreme?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh land quarters Yeah, I want to say land quarters documentary, man.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There is a land quarters book

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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, which I might have still because my coworker, Mitch Schee, was a regular rapper in 80s.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So he was a regular at Latin quarters and ended up giving me a copy of the book.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, if there was a Latin quarters documentary or a movie like I would be 10 toes down to watch that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Come on, Questlove.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I know you're doing important stuff.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like earth wouldn't fire and slime the family still.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like let's do the Latin quarters.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, these people are still alive.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so there's also a little bit of growth with a song called She's Out of My Life, where it is a heartbreak song.

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[SPEAKER_01]: he legitimately gets into it emotionally and weeps at the end.

19:30.581 --> 19:32.222
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that true, do you think?

19:34.124 --> 19:39.750
[SPEAKER_00]: So, there is a demo version of that song that was on one of the off-the-wall ratios where he doesn't cry at the end.

19:40.211 --> 19:40.591
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

19:40.611 --> 19:50.802
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I, you know, I think Michael is leading on his recent experience from the Wizz.

19:51.018 --> 19:54.102
[SPEAKER_00]: and offering a dramatic reenactment of the lyrics.

19:54.122 --> 19:56.705
[SPEAKER_01]: That's another scene I would have loved to see in the movie.

19:57.606 --> 20:04.415
[SPEAKER_01]: He's singin' the song, and he sings it clean, and Q's like, hey man, what's your cryin' to do this?

20:04.435 --> 20:05.817
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, do this a little bit differently.

20:05.857 --> 20:09.722
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna do this last take, and I want you to kind of fake cry.

20:10.042 --> 20:13.086
[SPEAKER_01]: Just your voice cracks just a little bit off out of it.

20:13.106 --> 20:17.852
[SPEAKER_01]: That would have been worth the price of admission alone to see that movie to see that scene.

20:17.832 --> 20:21.097
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I just got reminded of, in Delirius, we're Eddie.

20:23.681 --> 20:24.863
[SPEAKER_00]: Tito, give me some tissue.

20:28.027 --> 20:29.550
[SPEAKER_01]: Why was Tito always the one?

20:29.590 --> 20:34.016
[SPEAKER_01]: If you wanted to do a joke, it had to be Tito, because his name was Tito.

20:34.036 --> 20:45.814
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, I was talking to somebody who watched the movie, or I don't even, I don't know if they watched it, or maybe their kids had watched it, but they said that somebody told them,

20:46.958 --> 20:59.111
[SPEAKER_01]: the brothers, they don't really have parts in this movie other than background, and they don't even really get named at all, but you know which one is Tito, because he's wearing a hat that says Tito.

20:59.672 --> 21:09.602
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I mean, of course, right, right, okay, recorded mainly at West Lake, recording studios in Los Angeles.

21:10.523 --> 21:13.246
[SPEAKER_01]: And you and I, well, you already finished the book.

21:13.286 --> 21:16.830
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm still almost, I'm at the end of it.

21:17.502 --> 21:19.445
[SPEAKER_01]: He has a story.

21:20.046 --> 21:22.430
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm gonna ask you if you thought this was BS or not.

21:22.891 --> 21:28.361
[SPEAKER_01]: He has a story that Quincy Jones invited him to the recording studio.

21:29.242 --> 21:35.172
[SPEAKER_01]: And when he got there, Q was playing off the wall before it'd come out.

21:36.976 --> 21:38.178
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about that story?

21:38.959 --> 21:40.742
[SPEAKER_00]: It might be a smeter.

21:42.022 --> 21:44.686
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, Quincy's not around to verify it.

21:44.706 --> 21:46.168
[SPEAKER_00]: Michael's not around to verify it.

21:46.388 --> 21:48.090
[SPEAKER_00]: So we got to go on our Sineo's word.

21:49.632 --> 21:53.517
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I feel like, I don't know.

21:53.698 --> 21:56.461
[SPEAKER_00]: If that had actually happened, that story would have come out years before.

21:56.501 --> 21:57.242
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

21:58.184 --> 21:58.564
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

21:58.584 --> 21:59.385
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

21:59.586 --> 22:03.331
[SPEAKER_01]: You and I will have a short review of this book when I'm finally finished with this.

22:03.351 --> 22:05.093
[SPEAKER_01]: Take me a little bit longer than I thought.

22:05.815 --> 22:18.746
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the 18th of session musicians, Greg Fillinganes, who was a fantastic guest on Quest Love Supreme, talking about working with Michael.

22:18.806 --> 22:27.093
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to listen to kind of the inside story about some of these songs, check him out on Quest Love.

22:27.233 --> 22:35.400
[SPEAKER_01]: Lewis Johnson was on the bass, just the idea that, you know,

22:36.089 --> 23:05.522
[SPEAKER_01]: My as Michael's listening to these songs as he's singing these songs, he's also at the same time envisioning the choreography that he would like do I want to does this song make me want to dance because that is a big deal to him and thus you know that that's kind of how like he wants these songs that he is putting out to make him want to dance because if they make him want to dance then they're going to make other people want to dance here.

23:06.869 --> 23:15.762
[SPEAKER_01]: So the critical reception, Rolling Stone, Steve Holden, gave it a triumph and praised its post-motown glamour.

23:17.064 --> 23:19.528
[SPEAKER_01]: Village voice, you're gonna have to help me with this guy's name.

23:19.808 --> 23:36.133
[SPEAKER_01]: Robert Krskow, Krskow, yes, gave it an A, noting Michael's vocabulary of grunt squeals and hiccups, signaled he had finally grown up, so grunting and squealing means, my man is not a child anymore.

23:38.527 --> 23:46.062
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, okay, let's talk about the songs I asked you early on if this was one of your favorite albums or now I know it's one of your favorites.

23:46.102 --> 23:49.669
[SPEAKER_01]: I just didn't know on which day you're thinking about it.

23:49.709 --> 23:54.638
[SPEAKER_01]: If it ever tops it, but what is your favorite song on this album.

23:55.260 --> 23:59.067
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, well, that's going to blow my top five list up.

23:59.570 --> 24:04.857
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what we can tease them, you don't have to name it on the top five, but we could tease it.

24:05.378 --> 24:11.305
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, Brock with you is probably my favorite song on the album, but that's like, I don't know.

24:11.425 --> 24:18.835
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so hard to do because so much in that album is so strong and my familiarity with that album is so great.

24:18.855 --> 24:22.600
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I feel like I grew up with that album kind of like in my DNA almost.

24:22.900 --> 24:26.505
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's, you know, it's one of those very difficult decisions to make.

24:27.717 --> 24:28.878
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it's a perfect song.

24:29.799 --> 24:30.660
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I think it is, too.

24:32.402 --> 24:53.725
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the most perfect songs that I've ever heard in my life, like, when they put that thing together, it was the, I don't even know what you would want to call it, but it, it's just, you know, in, as I do, when we do these episodes is, I try and listen to as much as the discography as I can,

24:54.802 --> 25:04.947
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, going through all of LL's albums in one week was not necessarily doable, but we're only going through four four of MJ's albums for this episode.

25:06.310 --> 25:11.877
[SPEAKER_01]: And I won't spoil my top five either, but this is definitely high on the top five.

25:12.197 --> 25:14.360
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's because it's like a perfect pop song.

25:14.400 --> 25:18.004
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing wrong with this song at all.

25:18.084 --> 25:19.286
[SPEAKER_01]: It's sung perfectly.

25:19.947 --> 25:21.569
[SPEAKER_01]: It's got the right rhythm to it.

25:22.470 --> 25:25.453
[SPEAKER_01]: You can play this on any radio station today.

25:25.754 --> 25:27.155
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like any would fit in.

25:27.636 --> 25:35.946
[SPEAKER_00]: You can dance to it if you're like chilling at the beach or like at a barbecue, you can like relax.

25:37.006 --> 25:42.413
[SPEAKER_01]: Can we talk about our no-skips rating at this point because I wanted to point two things out?

25:44.515 --> 25:44.615
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

25:44.635 --> 25:59.594
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this would be a perfect 10 out of 10, except for girlfriend and it's the falling in love.

25:59.954 --> 26:02.878
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are the two songs that

26:03.905 --> 26:14.506
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if the idea is this is a grown ass, you know, this is a teenager turning into a grown ass man, those songs kind of take a step backwards from that mentality, I think.

26:14.526 --> 26:15.207
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know.

26:15.308 --> 26:21.660
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the falling in love is a pretty mature song, lyrically, you know, girlfriend is kind of silly.

26:21.640 --> 26:40.813
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but, you know, Paul McCartney writes silly love songs, um, so they're kind of makes sense, um, I'm not mad at either one of those songs, uh, girlfriend I will say is the one song when I'm listening to off the wall as a whole I usually skip it, um, but it's the following in love.

26:40.893 --> 26:42.636
[SPEAKER_00]: I actually kind of like that song.

26:45.569 --> 26:48.873
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the falling in love that's making me high.

26:49.013 --> 26:51.596
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the being in love that makes me cry, cry, cry, cry.

26:51.636 --> 26:52.578
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't get over that.

26:53.859 --> 26:54.280
[SPEAKER_00]: It's here.

26:54.480 --> 26:54.880
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

26:55.061 --> 26:55.561
[SPEAKER_01]: I think.

26:55.842 --> 27:08.017
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it was a teenage Michael Jackson, if it was the J5, I'd be like, okay, from that perspective, that's a cute way to explain, you know, how that works.

27:08.137 --> 27:11.000
[SPEAKER_01]: But as it just tells me that, I don't know.

27:11.020 --> 27:13.163
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure he had,

27:13.244 --> 27:18.890
[SPEAKER_01]: very little experience in relation to that at that time, even at the age of 20.

27:19.870 --> 27:24.935
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a little bit like, I'm not sure what audience this is for.

27:25.316 --> 27:37.428
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think if you get to like the heart of this song, it's really just like, hey, man, you know, being attracted to someone is super easy, but living a life with them can be really, really hard.

27:38.629 --> 27:41.952
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just said in a way that's maybe a little bit cuter.

27:41.932 --> 27:46.758
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's happily sing there's like no like she's out of my life.

27:47.579 --> 27:50.563
[SPEAKER_01]: There's literal heartbreak going on in that song.

27:50.604 --> 27:50.764
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

27:51.344 --> 27:51.545
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

27:51.905 --> 27:57.553
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is there are also a few other like I know Deon War recorded that song.

27:57.573 --> 28:11.331
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the falling in love has had a few different versions floating around and maybe it needed somebody with like a little bit more maturity to really kind of bring out.

28:12.087 --> 28:15.992
[SPEAKER_01]: I, even though, I'm not a fan of either of those two songs.

28:16.032 --> 28:20.719
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like a friggin' strong nine almost 10.

28:21.379 --> 28:22.962
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's almost the perfect album.

28:23.302 --> 28:23.983
[SPEAKER_00]: So nine and a half.

28:25.805 --> 28:32.975
[SPEAKER_01]: Where would you be on thriller, bad and dangerous in the same rating or in the same scale?

28:33.476 --> 28:35.659
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, thrillers also kind of a nine and a half.

28:36.360 --> 28:39.664
[SPEAKER_00]: If Thriller didn't have the girl as mine on it, it would be perfect.

28:41.905 --> 28:48.032
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, bad is more of like, seven and a half, eight.

28:49.073 --> 28:54.920
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say bad in dangerous are both like an eight off the wall on dangerous, or off the wall on thriller or nine and a half.

28:56.322 --> 29:02.469
[SPEAKER_01]: I think if we were able to pick our 12 songs on dangerous, that album would friggin' rock hard.

29:02.509 --> 29:03.610
[SPEAKER_01]: There's,

29:04.501 --> 29:11.161
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, as I'm thinking about it now, heal the world is, I mean, heal the world might be my least favorite Michael Jackson song ever.

29:11.683 --> 29:12.064
[SPEAKER_00]: Period.

29:13.007 --> 29:16.317
[SPEAKER_00]: And that just like, I understand.

29:16.685 --> 29:18.788
[SPEAKER_00]: sequentially why it's on the album.

29:18.908 --> 29:30.782
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like there's a bunch of like really aggressive dance tracks and then it just kind of like breaks that, you know, and does like, and you know, the intent of the song is beautiful song itself is ass.

29:33.366 --> 29:33.986
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, wait, wait.

29:34.127 --> 29:37.931
[SPEAKER_01]: So you hate that song worse than cry from invincible.

29:38.572 --> 29:39.814
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not talking about invincible.

29:39.954 --> 29:43.418
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I know, I know, but I'm just talking about in the history of MJ.

29:45.035 --> 29:47.359
[SPEAKER_00]: I dislike he'll the world more than I dislike cry.

29:47.640 --> 29:50.044
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because they're both cringeworthy.

29:50.384 --> 29:51.146
[SPEAKER_00]: They are cringeworthy.

29:51.166 --> 29:53.310
[SPEAKER_01]: They're both up there for cringiness of.

29:53.330 --> 29:56.295
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, cry is extra cringeworthy because of the person that wrote it.

29:56.756 --> 29:58.078
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

29:58.098 --> 29:58.919
[SPEAKER_00]: But he'll the world.

29:59.000 --> 30:02.065
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think is just so sappy.

30:02.500 --> 30:15.447
[SPEAKER_00]: And actually maybe it's not my least there's worse there's the lost children and there's little Susie is I now I'm thinking of all the horrible Michael Jackson songs there are, but it's definitely down there in the basement.

30:15.511 --> 30:19.416
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a sub we we say we put those in a special place.

30:20.557 --> 30:20.657
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

30:20.677 --> 30:25.884
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, we'll do I had when we do our top five, I have a rock with it.

30:26.004 --> 30:32.311
[SPEAKER_01]: Stop with it song or a couple of songs that that that lane that I'm kind of interested to talk to you about.

30:32.692 --> 30:32.972
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

30:33.773 --> 30:38.098
[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, you know, like I said, I think danger or not.

30:38.118 --> 30:39.140
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, dangerous.

30:40.681 --> 30:42.784
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if I could cherry pick.

30:42.983 --> 31:02.106
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's say my favorite 10 to 12 songs, you have like a banger of an album, and the problem is that it's just so long to our songs that are just not necessary, you know, bad bad is.

31:03.065 --> 31:18.085
[SPEAKER_01]: At, you know, the fact that I think bad is probably the album that gets played most on the adult contemporary stations that probably says something, you know, the light rock less talk stations that that that there's a lot of bad going on on those stations.

31:18.426 --> 31:21.750
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, bad.

31:21.770 --> 31:30.422
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say has the most songs that are like mediocre.

31:32.765 --> 31:38.131
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, off the wall and thriller have songs that are like skippable, but not songs that are like terrible.

31:38.412 --> 31:39.813
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just kind of silly.

31:41.055 --> 31:49.224
[SPEAKER_00]: If you had to pick between a wall or thriller, mmm, do I have to, you know, I've always said this.

31:49.364 --> 31:51.487
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll answer it without answering it.

31:52.308 --> 31:56.913
[SPEAKER_00]: If you took side one of off the wall and side two of thriller, smoosh him together, you'd have the perfect record.

31:59.216 --> 32:02.620
[SPEAKER_01]: Over the last 10 years,

32:03.663 --> 32:09.993
[SPEAKER_01]: Or as I, I would say previously, I was leaning thriller, but the last 10 years, I think, I'm more off the wall.

32:10.834 --> 32:11.976
[SPEAKER_00]: Or I'll say it like this.

32:12.036 --> 32:13.739
[SPEAKER_00]: To me, off the wall is more consistent.

32:14.600 --> 32:16.142
[SPEAKER_00]: Thriller has higher highs.

32:18.826 --> 32:22.953
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my favorite song on the top five is thriller.

32:23.013 --> 32:24.475
[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll leave it at that.

32:24.816 --> 32:25.637
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's move on.

32:27.608 --> 32:30.110
[SPEAKER_01]: The Grammys, the Grammys are Grammy Redux here.

32:30.531 --> 32:31.752
[SPEAKER_01]: So it does win.

32:32.612 --> 32:35.375
[SPEAKER_01]: Best R&B vocal for don't stop you get enough.

32:37.236 --> 32:41.040
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nominated, was there a disco category in the Grammys?

32:41.060 --> 32:41.840
[SPEAKER_01]: For one year.

32:42.481 --> 32:42.941
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man.

32:45.664 --> 32:46.364
[SPEAKER_01]: That's incredible.

32:47.425 --> 32:50.428
[SPEAKER_01]: And Album of the Year does not get nominated.

32:51.368 --> 32:56.653
[SPEAKER_01]: Here are the albums that are nominated, and I want you to put off the wall.

32:57.038 --> 32:58.280
[SPEAKER_01]: next to these albums.

32:58.300 --> 33:00.022
[SPEAKER_00]: How you heard me know what my answer is, man?

33:01.824 --> 33:11.557
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the nominations for Outma the Year, 1980 Grammys, 52nd Street by Billy Joel, Phil Ramone is the producer.

33:12.639 --> 33:17.325
[SPEAKER_01]: Minute by Minute, the Dooby Brothers, Ted Templeman producer.

33:17.693 --> 33:28.506
[SPEAKER_01]: The gambler, Kenny Rogers, Larry Butler producer, bad girls, Donna Summers, producers are George E. O. Marauder, yes.

33:29.227 --> 33:33.092
[SPEAKER_01]: And Pete Belot, Belotty, I don't know.

33:33.112 --> 33:34.854
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually not sure how to pronounce his last name.

33:35.675 --> 33:42.604
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the last one, breakfast in America, super tramp, the producers, Peter Henderson, and super tramp.

33:43.259 --> 33:55.174
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, off-the-wall is, first of all, I miss what the do-be brothers are, like Michael McDonald is, you know, one of my favorite singers of all time, but off-the-wall is better than all those albums.

33:55.755 --> 33:56.375
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

33:56.496 --> 33:57.717
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even a contest.

33:59.379 --> 34:07.509
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just shows you how, you know, these, these awards, how they were seen back then, right?

34:07.529 --> 34:07.750
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?

34:08.350 --> 34:08.811
[SPEAKER_01]: Like,

34:10.006 --> 34:17.704
[SPEAKER_01]: the idea that someone is famous as Michael Jackson who had been around music for so long.

34:18.680 --> 34:22.928
[SPEAKER_01]: he would put out an album that people would not take seriously enough.

34:23.649 --> 34:29.520
[SPEAKER_01]: Or at least the recording the people who vote for the Grammys wouldn't take it seriously enough.

34:30.262 --> 34:35.812
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead they would put, it's actually interesting that Donna Summers' album is on that list in Michael Jackson's.

34:35.832 --> 34:42.004
[SPEAKER_01]: It isn't if we're going by that same sort of political black music kind of thing.

34:41.984 --> 34:42.425
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

34:42.546 --> 34:44.071
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's let's pause for a second here.

34:44.111 --> 34:49.869
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, there's a couple of things and I'm not trying to defend the Grammy Awards any anyway, but there's a few things to note here.

34:50.451 --> 34:51.454
[SPEAKER_00]: One is that

34:52.177 --> 34:56.906
[SPEAKER_00]: The Grammys have a deadline or like a calendar that's different than the regular calendar.

34:57.487 --> 35:02.816
[SPEAKER_00]: So the deadline now is I believe the end of August for like releases.

35:03.137 --> 35:06.262
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you wanna be considered, you have to have your album up before August 31st.

35:07.164 --> 35:08.546
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure what it was back then.

35:08.567 --> 35:12.193
[SPEAKER_00]: It was probably similar plus or minus 30 days, whatever.

35:12.173 --> 35:14.738
[SPEAKER_00]: off the wall came out at the very end of August 1979.

35:14.798 --> 35:19.447
[SPEAKER_00]: So it would have just smuck in to be submitted.

35:20.188 --> 35:27.482
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also worth noting that when all the wall came out, like it wasn't a guaranteed hit, like Michael, you know,

35:28.610 --> 35:37.125
[SPEAKER_00]: The Jackson's had their hits at the beginning of the career and then like did not have like had like a couple of like outright flops.

35:38.568 --> 35:43.116
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the later part of the 70s and then destiny kind of brought them back up a little bit.

35:43.878 --> 35:45.741
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know,

35:47.223 --> 35:53.090
[SPEAKER_00]: There wasn't a guarantee that a Michael Jackson solo album was going to be as successful as it ended up being.

35:54.592 --> 36:08.269
[SPEAKER_00]: So Michael was kind of still an unknown quantity at that time, whereas on a summer was like the biggest artist out, you know, and had a couple of years of just having like hit after hit after hit after hit after hit.

36:10.156 --> 36:21.178
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Donna Summer's album also had like a rock lean to it like a date probably was a little bit more crossover friendly, but you know, had

36:21.631 --> 36:27.199
[SPEAKER_00]: Michael had off the wall come out maybe a month later and been as successful.

36:27.700 --> 36:35.271
[SPEAKER_00]: The next year's Grammys Michael would have been nominated for in one more awards and as it stood, Michael won five American musical awards for off the wall.

36:35.712 --> 36:43.183
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, the Grammys missed out a little bit, but you know, they're their reasons why that happened.

36:44.513 --> 36:47.760
[SPEAKER_01]: the album cover, which is kind of behind me.

36:47.780 --> 36:53.211
[SPEAKER_01]: I stretch it behind both, yes, just to fit my view here.

36:53.271 --> 37:04.193
[SPEAKER_01]: But the glit, the tuxedo, what do you think is behind the tuxedo and then the bricks, like what do you think is the message there?

37:04.561 --> 37:09.791
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the bricks, it's literally the album title, like the album's called Off the Wall.

37:09.831 --> 37:10.953
[SPEAKER_00]: He's leading against the wall.

37:12.415 --> 37:28.425
[SPEAKER_00]: The Tuxedo, and I remember reading about it back in the day, and age is part of like a style decision, maybe designed to like say, hey, here's a grownup, here's a guy that's, okay, I can wear a suit.

37:28.405 --> 37:33.253
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, some people suggested it might be like, like, a graduation suit like here.

37:33.413 --> 37:35.216
[SPEAKER_00]: I am like I'm graduating to an adult.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to rock this suit.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, then, you know, there's a few different ways you could look and I don't know that Michael's ever really explained why he chose to wear the tucks.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, okay.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The, uh, a couple of stories.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So Bruce Swedeen engineer.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Is that him?

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[SPEAKER_01]: He's the same.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He used a technique called a acoustic.

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[SPEAKER_01]: No, sorry, acusonic recording process, which involves recording in stereo pairs to create a massive, wide sound stage.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I'm not smart enough about music production to really know what that means or why he did that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But supposedly, now this is, I don't know if this is true or not, supposedly Michael requested to record his vocals in darkness to help him feel the music better and lose his self-consciousness.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I can see him wanting to do that because, you know, the legend is that when Mike recorded his vocals, he wanted to dance and I personally would feel much more comfortable dancing

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[SPEAKER_00]: if I couldn't look out and see people's eyes on me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like cutting the lights off allowed him to be a little bit more free.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then we mentioned Rod Temperton.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The British songwriter was discovered by Quincy after his work with the funk band Heatwave and he became Michael's secret weapon.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, man.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, Rob Temperton doesn't get a lot of credit or doesn't get I think enough credit for being such a fantastic songwriter.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But even if you think about those like Heat Wave songs, Boogie Knights, always and forever, like those are classic classic songs.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Always forever was like the black national anthem when I was growing up.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, that was the song that closed that, you know, you ended all the house parties with, you put on all the slow jam mix tapes, like that kind of thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But, you

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[SPEAKER_00]: Quincy brought him a board and, you know, he wrote rock with you, uh, he wrote off the wall, he ended up writing a baby be mine, uh, lady in my life thriller like all fantastic songs.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything we did not hit on this album that you wanted to bring up?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know, man.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, off the wall was the first album by a solo artist to generate four top 10 records on a pop charts in the U.S., which was a record that Michael himself broke with thriller.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I think that was important.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and it was really just like, again, it was like his coming out party.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, you know, you know, Michael is like this cute little kid singing these like bubble gum records and then.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the Jackson's burr, like mass appeal audiences kind of went away for a couple of years and then I remember like at the beginning of 1979, all of a sudden they were all over TV because they were celebrating their 10th anniversary, they were on solo train, they're on American bandstand, they're on like a lot of my earliest memories of watching music on TV are like from that early 1979 run.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then summertime comes and all of a sudden it's like, oh, it's not just the Jackson's, it's Michael Jackson and he's like, you know, it's this like iconic thing and I off the wall is really like the first album that I can remember being I completely and totally in love with as little kid like even just looking at the cover like I have, you know,

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[SPEAKER_00]: Got it tattooed on my arm, like that album, you know, means a lot to me and just again from like the standpoint of being like a three four year old kid Who's already like oh my god Michael Jackson is awesome like you know that album just is is very very important to my DNA There's a scene in the movie where

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[SPEAKER_01]: Michael is with his security at a toy store and they're buying toys which I think they're going to give to some of the children that he's visiting at the hospital.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And he's walking through this toy store and I'm like

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[SPEAKER_01]: why is he not mugged yet like people the white why have people not noticed that he's in you know he's like running around shooting like nerf guns and stuff right and then and then finally they go to get to cash register and then you see all the people he's got a sign autographs for I feel like that scene did it

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[SPEAKER_01]: injustice to his celebrity.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I feel like even, you know, maybe not in 79 yet, but, you know, kind of right around the thriller time frame.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think this dude could have walked on on the street without being noticed like almost immediately.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I would say like right after off the wall came out, it just became like there is no way that Mike was going to be able to just, you know, go go outside and like walk through the park without being mocked.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: All right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: that's going to end our episode on off the wall.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Check out 50 for 50.net if you want to hear our review of the movie Michael, which did some pretty great box office.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We have that up and we will have our top five episode coming later this week on the

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[SPEAKER_01]: off the wall through dangerous era and Michael Jackson isn't saying I did not try and out smart myself with this list My judgment I went through it and I was like here's what my heart says here's what my heart says here's what my heart Yes, and that that's the smart thing to do I've you know, I'm looking at my list now.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I actually wrote it out and I'm still struggling

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[SPEAKER_01]: All right, we'll we'll be back, check out our review of Michael and then later this week our top five on Michael Jackson.

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[SPEAKER_01]: All right, that is it from here for Mike.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm double GCU and see you piece out.